We just recorded this podcast several hours ago so the final product won't be out until later in the week, but the exercise prompted me to generate this post which we can discuss in a separate thread:
Posts by Cassius
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I realized something in recording the Lucretius Today podcast today. Our topic was Cicero's challenge that it is impossible to advocate for the Epicurean in public - that in Cicero's words we "dare not plead for either in the senate, or before the assembly of the people, or before the army, or the censors." (Tusculan Disputations 3:21)
As far as I am aware there are essentially TWO examples of Epicurean advocacy in existence which - with only slight modification, if any - would be suitable for delivery to a public assembly:
1. The first is the delivery by Torquatus of his defense of Epicurus in On Ends Book 1, which we have here. This is probably far and away the all-time preeminent piece of Epicurean advocacy in existence.
2. The second is the letter of Cosma Raimondi here. This would require slight modification as in its current form it is addressed to a single person, but the changes necessary to format it for delivery to a larger audience would be minimal.
Am i missing something that fits the same description? Something that with minimal changes could be delivered by an advocate such as a lawyer to a jury or a senator to the senate, especially in a context in which it is seen as a response to an attack on the Epicurean school?
Hopefully there are other examples, but asking the question brings up the obvious point that there need to be more. Many more.
At this point it's just an idea but it makes perfect sense to me so sponsor the equivalent of the old "Essay Contest" style of event in which we offered a prize for the best submission over a specified period of time.
Starting simple might involve just an essay, but let's face it we are in 2025 and with AI audio and video generation, and good written submission can be brought to life rather easily audio-visually , with text to speech and at least slideshow accompaniment. We should probably also require that the final product be dedicated to the public domain and therefore be shareable by anyone on any social media or other location.
I'll probably start thinking about setting this up as a future project, but before I do does anyone have any ideas about how we might fine-tune the idea? if so I'll work to incorporate that in a competition "prospectus" that would describe the required format, goal of the competition, and any style guidelines that might be appropriate.
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Thank you Pacatus! That last post as it is a perfect example of the best way to pursue the topic Patrikios has raised while staying within the forum rules!
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Admin Note: I scanned over the article Patrikios posted, and it's behind a paywall so as I write this I have seen only the general opening. "The problem of evil" is a very important philosophical question so while the post seems to me at the moment to be ok, I'm putting this here just as a caution. "The problem of evil" is fair game, but a detailed discussion of who is right or wrong or whatever in the specifics of this very hot-button issue would be beyond the scope of the forum and violate our no-politics rule. Please keep that rule in mind in assessing any follow-up commentary (or lack thereof) on the article. Lurkers should not take the allowance of the post or any further posting or non-posting in response to it as taking sides on that issue. Everyone can and probably should do that in their private lives, especially since this issue is so closely tied to the disasters that come from supernatural religion. Aside from the philosophical side, most or all of the rest of this issue should not be part of our discussion here.
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After further investigation it appears that some users were not seeing reply boxes in the Lucretius Today Podcast forum threads, but other threads were performing normally. I've made a change to address that.
If anyone continues to see an issue please post here.
If you are a level 2 or above you should always see "Reply" boxes in any thread that you have permissions to view in the first place.
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I've received a report that a member doesn't see a reply box under our Lucretius Today Podcast Episode 302 thread, and therefore cannot comment. Anyone else seeing that or other missing functionality?
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Episode 302 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Epicurus And The Road That Is Paved With Good Intentions"
Epicurista tells me:
QuoteMy interest in Epicurus arose when i studied Cicero at university. My professor, a specialist in Plato, was venturing into the skeptical academy. And we read some of Cicero's dialogues. I've been intrigued by how atomism works ever since. Without a doubt the most interesting part for me is the physics. I already made a post on the facebook group ( sorry spamming, im happy to found so many good sources ) about the swerve. It has always bothered me in my readings of Epicurus that the clinamen is never mentioned — it only appears later in Lucretius. I've even met some professors who argue that the swerve isn't necessary for Epicurus, and that's why he never mentions it in any of his letters.
That's it. I'm passionate by the Hellenism. In my university, the discussion and the interest is mainly Plato.
Welcome epicurista !
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All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.
Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.
You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.
We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
Which Epicurus would you want at your Birthday party or Twentieth Celebration?
I would definitely want the one on the left - the real Epicurus - the way he was portrayed by the people who knew him best!
We ought to note for the record that the one on the right is a creative alteration, and not authentic!
Welcome to Episode 303 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
This week we continue covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean perspective and we move into Section XXI to address a particularly important challenge from Cicero:
How do we advocate the Epicurean position in public gatherings?
QuoteBut these men behave with too much heat, especially as the opinions which they would uphold are no very spirited ones, and such as they dare not plead for either in the senate, or before the assembly of the people, or before the army, or the censors: but, however, I will argue with them another time, and with such a disposition that no quarrel shall arise between us; for I shall be ready to yield to their opinions when founded on truth. Only I must give them this advice: That were it ever so true, that a wise man regards nothing but the body; or, to express myself with more decency, never does anything except what is expedient, and views all things with exclusive reference to his own advantage; as such things are not very commendable, they should confine them to their own breasts, and leave off talking with that parade of them.
Comments on this episode:
1 - Joshua stresses that Cicero seems to object to Epicurus' labeling of pain as evil even more than he objects to labeling pleasure as good.
But suppose we are mistaken as to his pleasure, are we so too as to his pain? I maintain therefore the impropriety of language which that man uses when talking of virtue, who would measure every great evil by pain?"
Yes a good topic, and something to correlate with the observation that to my knowledge none of the statues of Epicurus or any other Epicurean shows them smiling, but rather more serious or, in the case of Epicurus, intense.
Happy Birthday to Cyrano! Learn more about Cyrano and say happy birthday on Cyrano's timeline: Cyrano
QuoteLucretius 4-462
Wondrously many other things of this sort we see, all of which would fain spoil our trust in the senses; all in vain, since the greatest part of these things deceives us on account of the opinions of the mind, which we add ourselves, so that things not seen by the senses are counted as seen. For nothing is harder than to distinguish things manifest from things uncertain, which the mind straightway adds of itself.
I think the posts above have done a good job of responding to the size of the sun concern, so I'll add only how I fit all this together in my mind:
Epicurus' main concern was fighting against those who think that their minds can impose their will and take precedence over nature. All "measurement" issues essentially come down to imposing units of measure that we construct in our own minds, and the confusion arises when we begin to think that our mental processes are superior to reality. Thus the ultimate issue to Epicurus was not to be a technician and measure things by a certain number of units, but to point out that units are our construction, and we should always follow nature, not our own constructions.
As to particles being open to "infinite division," that can be dismissed as a possibility because if things could be divided infinitely there would never be anything firm which maintains its own properties, but we see that properties do have regularity, so infinite divisibility is impossible.
As to possibility of particles being "infinitely large," the reverse is the case, because an infinitely large particle would consume the universe, and we also see that that is not so.
As to the universe as a whole being bounded in size, that is also not possible definitionally, because being bounded means there is an edge, and there can be no edge where there is "nothing" on the other side.
Time likewise is not measured in units except as to our imposing an arbitrary measure on it, and for that purpose any arbitrary measurement such as we commonly use (days, hours, minutes) is suitable, just so long as you don't get the idea that those units are established and enforced by nature.
As to the size of the sun, the answers such as Eikadistes gave seems to me to be correct.
The important thing to Epicurus is not to establish a specific measurement, but to make a properly-understood "man is the measurer of all things" point that all measurements are arbitrarily assigned by us, and to have any usefulness must be in accord with our sensations, as our sensations ("how things appear to be") are ultimately all we have to work with. We use our minds to analyze "illusory" phenomena such as discussed at length in Lucretius Book 4, but the constant problem is that we begin to think that our minds are the authority rather than the data we receive from the senses.
There's nothing more important than to keep in mind that we are not the masters of nature. Nature is the mother of all things, and we have to constantly fight the temptation to think that we can change that.
"The sun is the size that it appears to be" is a way of reinforcing that lesson in very stark terms. It's so effective that we're still debating it two thousand years later.
I don't agree with every detail of the Gellar-Goad article but I think he's correct that Epicurus tended to like to use very confrontational statements like this. We tend to see them in every important area of the philosophy, physics, canonics, and ethics.
QuoteVS29. (Bailey) “In investigating nature I would prefer to speak openly and like an oracle to give answers serviceable to all mankind, even though no one should understand me, rather than to conform to popular opinions and so win the praise freely scattered by the mob.”
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Welcome Webernys and I apologize for the delay in getting you approved! I don't have record of your original email so I am not sure what happened there but thank you for being persistent, and please let us know a little about your interest in Epicurus.
Welcome wbernys !
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.
Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.
You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.
We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
Welcome Yonder! Here's a little of why we were glad to approve Yonder's account!
Quote
I came across your site while tracking down online resources for college students. Looks good! ...In grad school I studied ancient political theory among groups that imagined themselves as members of a commonwealth other than that of the existing state. Epicurus' teachings on friendship and the oikos as a model of sociality were not only interesting but inspiring. I'm grateful that so many people these days are interested!
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New Youtube Video - "Epicurus Responding to His Haters" - October 2025 3
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October 5, 2025 at 3:55 PM - Uncategorized Discussion (General)
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